Rev. Father Michael McGrath has been involved with The Irish Pilgrimage Trust for many years, as a chaplain in Group 108. He is a priest of the diocese of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise and is resident as curate in Carrick on Shannon in Leitrim, Ireland. He is also the diocesan schools advisor. Fr Michael joined the Board in 2007 and is now Trust Chaplain. Each year at Easter, The Trust travels on pilgrimage and on holiday to Lourdes with young people with special needs.The Trust also provides respite care in its purpose built home from home in Kilcuan. Since its opening in 1998 Kilcuan has been the venue of many friendship weeks and has welcomed many organizations. To Learn More about how you can donate , Email: chaplain@irishpilgrimagetrust.com. It was an honor to meet with Father who discussed his love of the church and his many charitable causes...
Thank you father for meeting with me today...
You’re very welcome...
When did you decide to become a priest?
There are a lot of layers to that question; it’s something I always dreamt about as a boy, but I suppose the big decision was when I joined the seminary...What was that experience like?
That’s the college for the priesthood...you decide to embark on the course... the decision is made at the end of every summer. Then the big decision to be ordained is the last one ...
I see...
Well, it was like that couple I was with yesterday... it’s a final commitment and that was a bit hard I have to say....
Really, why?
Um...(pause) wondering was...suppose it was a warped sense of faith, that God has this blueprint and that’s it but it’s not actually like that. And it’s the fear, ‘Would I be able for it?’ and that sort of thing. Not long before I was ordained I went to Clonmacnoise in Offaly ...
I’m sorry, what is that?
Oh, it’s the holiest site in our diocese … There you have the ruins of a very old monastic settlement. I was there and this is when I was at this last stage. There was a bird up in a tower, a crow that was learning how to fly and my friend said, ‘you’re like that, and you just have to trust yourself...’ Just trust! And that was at the beginning of it but I have to say that I have no doubts as to why I stayed, to why I am happy now as a priest ...
And how do you feel about it now?
I love being a priest. You meet people like your grandmother ... coming into access with people like that, having that privilege; that’s where God speaks powerfully now ... that’s what makes it so worthwhile and fulfilling being a priest.
She had such great faith...
...when someone like that would ask for you to pray for them...that’s a huge privilege. To be in the presence of people at all stages of their faith journey—that’s what it’s about.
Then there was the wedding yesterday...I mean there is nothing like that! I suppose there is a theological thing in it too. You know at Mass: we believe in the Eucharist…we believe that Christ is present in the consecrated bread and wine. But that’s not all. We also believe Him present in the proclamation of his word. And more! In the people who gather. That’s what we forget very often: Christ present in the people.
My aunt Phil said she felt that sort of connection; in the people who came and the amount of people and to be able to talk to people and share their experience of losing a loved one. She really felt that she was also giving to them.
In Jesus, God became one of us. He is part of our story. When we all did the rosary it was just extraordinary...when people are all huddled into the same room...praying...that’s when I am convinced I am where I’m supposed to be.
My aunt feels she (my grandmother) had everything she wanted right down to when the coffin was being lowered...
Mary, the mother of Jesus was strong. We allude to that, it comes up an awful lot in the funeral ritual. She didn’t buckle when Jesus died, she was grief stricken but she didn’t crumble. It’s the dignity you all had; it just didn’t fall apart...
It was spiritual...
When we stood up to greet the people, my aunt said it felt like a celebration...
And I believe Mary was present also...I don’t know how to describe that presence but there is something very real...
Would you consider yourself a ‘typical priest?’
People think I have it all together, but I haven’t got it all together, I haven’t got it all, I’m not God, I’m human...the original expectation (and I’m not sure where it came from) was to be this little god....(laughing).
If someone approached you and asked what your job titles are, what would you say to them?
Well, one of my jobs in the diocese for example is to visit schools. I work with a sister...there are a total of 80 schools. Sometimes it’s just to visit and chat with them and say encouraging things...
That’s lovely...
It’s totally unquantifiable, you cannot measure it. Someone once said that a priest is ‘a midwife to mystery.’ What they meant was: you cannot bring them to it...for example I never brought Jesus to your grandmother...I had already acknowledged he was there. The mystery is not in my pocket...and I think that’s the biggest task if you like...Christ is already there. That’s the grace. I just have to name it, tap into it …
I love that....
God is in my work, we do acknowledge it...we had a teacher in college who once said, ‘you can’t pray to God all the time everywhere unless you stop to pray some of the time somewhere’...the point of going to church is not so you can get away from everything else but to go back to the mess and bring about transformation...we’re transformed so that maybe we can discover that the transformation of the mess starts with us...
I’ve heard everything in our lives starts and ends with us...
You know that Michael Jackson’s song, ‘Man in the Mirror?’ Sometimes we see the life of faith as a chore, like earning browning points...we’re checking off, ‘I went to church, I did this... that, etc.’ But no, you bring everything to church and are grateful, it’ll be a bit transformed...somehow! Change starts with the person in the mirror.
I see what you mean now, your title cannot really be described exactly, it’s...
I hope that my preaching would resonate with people, maybe help people discover the beauty within them. Maybe that’s our job; to convince others how beautiful they are but that’s not Michael McGrath. It’s all down to how God works... But what you say at the time of a wake or a wedding … that’s important. People seem more open at these times … they want a word ... I suppose it’s a hunger. Especially at a funeral where it’s just more harrowed, those key times...Christmas or Easter as well. We allow ourselves to be more open to the mystery we call God...
I agree with that...
Certainly more are open to healing maybe and...It’s like doing mass for a first Holy Communion. It might be for the man who just made a new discovery at the First Holy Communion of his grandchild. I mean this happens for me... you hear a piece scripture and then one day you’re in a certain mood and those same words suddenly hit you and they mean something else...it’s a deeper connection...
Your service has revived many of my family members’ faith, is this something that has happened for you in the past?
That’s wonderful, that was God’s grace...
Have you been to Knock?
Yes. And for the most part I like it. However...I have a mixed bag of feelings about it. Not long ago I had a dreadful experience in Confession there. Confession (also known as Sacrament of Reconciliation or Penance) is such a beautiful sacrament and we can destroy it. My favourite story is the Ugly Duckling. Experiencing God’s love is like the moment the Ugly Duckling discovers he’s really a swan. Shouldn’t we have that experience in confession when we bring the ugliness of our sin before the Lord? But I am not sure that people meet that loving God always ... in confession. I didn’t have that experience when I went to confession in Knock.
Oh so it’s a little too strict you mean?
In a way...the gospel is not meant to make people feel small. It’s not about pride either … the gospel is meant to make me realize how loveable I am and how worth it I am. Going to church should be a joyful experience. But people talk about going to church an obligation and feeling bad... the good old ‘catholic guilt.’ We just don’t know how to celebrate sometimes... we use these terms, ‘obligation...’
How would you summarize Traditions?
I think it’s very important. I think there are two kinds: tradition with a lower case and capital. I would use big ‘T’ when it has more to do with being faithful to what’s being handed down. For example if something of your grandmothers’ prayer wasn’t going to spill over into your lives well then something valuable has been lost. Saint Paul said when he talked of the Eucharist that has been handed down to him, it is apostolic. The little‘t’ has to do with the kind of...maybe the stuff that induces a lot of the guilt. I don’t know how to be specific with that. Like not eating meat, it’s important to do. We all stand in the water, we all stand in tradition. I’m Irish, I’m a priest, and that’s been so flawed in the world and that’s where I am and I’m happy to be there...
What about Lourdes?
Love Lourdes, I’m involved with a group IHCPT, the Irish Pilgrimage Trust … we bring a group of special needs children there. What I like about it is the experience of church when I go there...it’s community...we have little groups, we celebrate just as much when we’re in church and when we’re kicking a ball around together. My mother loved it there so it’s a family thing too ...
Has the amount of priests in Ireland being ordained stayed the same throughout the years?
In my first year class in the seminary there were about 70 fellows from all over the country and there were about thirty ordained seven years later. Now the numbers have gone much lower than that...
How do you feel about divorce?
It’s like the old idea that God has this blueprint...I‘ve encouraged people to leave! I mean if you love someone and they love you, you should be blossoming! I don’t think people should ever stay when it’s abusive. To be quite honest people don’t ask advice anymore but I do think in some...if there’s a couple who meet this bump...every life meets a bump and for better or for worse bit. But there are times when it’s just too hard to keep it going....marriage shouldn’t always be a struggle.
I totally agree. If both people are not happy, they shouldn’t be forced to stay. Does this idea go against the no divorce thing in the Catholic Church?
I have good friends in new relationships and it’s tough when there’s a tradition with a capital ‘T.’ I know why it’s taught but it’s ...
How do you feel about unmarried couples living together?
Sometimes couples show all the signs of commitment and most often when they buy a home together they are making some kind of plan for marriage. That’s a lot different than meeting someone in a club and going home for the night. It’s a committed relationship; of course I’d love if they’d get married. If it was my own sister that’s what I’d wish...
Have you ever met the Pope?
I shook John Paul’s hand when I was a student...
Wow!
It’s no big deal. I suppose you’d be in awe, if I got the opportunity to meet him I would love it but I wouldn’t be screaming now...
How do you feel about the current situation in Rome?
We don’t experience the church as the big Roman Thing. We experience it in our own church, our own parish. We want tradition and we want people who are faithful to attend it. But you can still have issues with the church and still support it and attend. It’s very easy to say, ‘no divorce’ and make it a blanket statement because it’s the ideal. But ‘Joe’ may not be ideal so you want to support this person but at the same time remain faithful to the church. We experience church within our own parish community. The experience of God is not immediate. It’s mediated some way and that’s through people.
What about the issue of birth control?
The big one...Humanae Vitae...I used to think everything was black and white and I don’t think like this anymore, there is much more grey...
You lived in the States?
When I went to study I lived at a parish in Bowie, Maryland. It was a wonderful experience of church. The major thing I learned: I think to be truly honest, it was the first time I got what the Eucharist was about. You know that term, ‘real presence’. Of course I believed but I didn’t get it fully...I didn’t get it wholly. For me getting those three things right: you acknowledge he is present in word, and in people, and in the bread and wine...
How did you embrace all three of these things?
It used to be me feeling...it became very me centred like I’m the one who’s doing this as a priest at the altar but it’s actually we. You say ‘we.’ To me that was the bit I was missing. Christ is in the assembly, the people who gather to worship. It’s not Father up there giving Christ to these Christ-less folk down there in the pews. Like what I said earlier … it’s not me bringing God in my pocket...
What degrees do you hold?
Bachelors in Arts, Bachelors in Theology and a Masters in Religious Education... I studied for the Maters in Catholic University in Washington. That was by far the best academic experience I had.
What was so great about it?
...I had more to bring to the table, more experience...more experience to bring to the reading. It was more personal...smaller groups, not this huge lecture hall where there are just notes.
Recently I had an amazing conversation with my uncle Sean about the many ways we can all do service...
I have no doubt that probably the most important thing that’s happening in the church is parents rearing children. There’s a mother getting the wind out of the baby and another with a sick child and it’s the mothers and fathers who are praying with their children at night and that’s where it’s happening and that’s where there is love. That’s one of the ways. And sometimes I think the job of the priest is not to play every instrument. I can’t be a parent; I’m not in that place. I can’t bring healing the way a mother will. Part of my privilege is to point out how God is there, like with all those people there for your family, that’s service!
There was a lot of service...I am so grateful for that! Not to change the topic but I hear you have great taste in music and you’re also a fan of Dar Williams!
I went to see Dar Williams in Maryland with my friends from the parish I lived at when I was a student ...
And Willie...
Yeah, I like Willie Nelson. I saw him recently. The concert I’m really looking forward to this year is Sting, in the 02 in Dublin. At our priest retreat this year, one of the guiding questions to the small groups was, ‘What brings you joy?’ We were all being pious in our responses … until one priest said, ‘When I have a concert ticket on the mantle piece!’ (laughing) It’s true and I think that’s good. I guess ... I don’t know where I got this but I think that sometimes we try to over-spiritualize everything and I don’t know a good example of it...try to put a big spiritual meaning onto something that is really very simple....it’s not even the church thing. It’s like looking at a flower and saying there’s beauty in it not that it has a magical meaning. It’s like many think being human is not good enough....
Priests should have a life too and enjoy the many aspects...
I mean it was good enough for God … being human! The reality of what helps us become more human ... helps us get closer to God ...
Yesterday brought that out I think...it was a very human experience...
People were hurting and sympathizing from a deep place and we’re not trying to look for, not trying to....God is in all that stuff, not above or below, it’s kind of raw....
Would you agree with those who suggest a confession is needed before receiving Eucharist?
Reminds me ... of Knock. I don’t think its right; it’s not what Jesus said in the Bible. Remember that famous scene when Princess Diana went to that AIDS patient and hugged her? I think it’s crazy when people go to church and don’t take the Eucharist... I don’t think Religion is supposed to be a worthiness contest!
Like in the story of the Good Samaritan ... if the priest or the Levite passing by were to touch this guy they would be rendered impure...and it would cause a scandal …
So if you’re not in church for a few months, and return by God’s grace because that’s the only way, I don’t think God is saying you can look but you can’t touch...
Has anyone ever approached you for assistance in an exorcism?
(laughing) There is evil. But I’ve never been in such a presence of evil that I had to...you know what I’m saying. I do believe in the church’s sacramentals; holy water, they are all....I don’t doubt... I believe there is one that would do this within the diocese but I don’t know who it is. I believe in the power of blessings, like when people come to get their car and home blessed. And laying hands on sick people. I do believe in the power of the touch and all that kind of thing ... I guess that’s the human thing again … flesh and blood needs flesh and blood!
How have things stayed the same?
Same has to be with that God is present with us...
What does the future hold?
The future has to be ... I love that thing I mentioned before of my American experience in the church, you know the teaching on the bread and wine...when we grow to believe that Christ is with us in the mess....and everything...
Have you ever visited the North?
Don’t know what I’d say because I’m not living there...But I’m obviously glad there is some kind of resolution there.
I see you stay in shape...
Well, that’s also an important part of my day. I kind of had a conversation experience...that was in 1997. I went into a shop to buy a pair of pants and when my friend in the shop advised that there was more room to be let out at the already 38 inch waist, I secretly made the decision that that would never ever happen to me again!! So, I started walking ... and with time jogging. Healthy mind and healthy body and all that …
I totally agree with that. Well Father, this has been really insightful for me. I learned so much...you really helped my family. You are a blessing to this community...
Thank you...I love what I do.
